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+--- Thread: Recent events have me thinking (/thread-230.html)
- Naught - 2006.Aug.24 08:14 AM
I may be wrong here, but if the payments for credits scheme is going to be called a donation, then shouldn't this also be a non-profit organization? I'm assuming its not.
The problem here is that the powers that be decided to allow that much currency into the game and now they regret having done it. It seems to me if they are going to remove that money from the game that Casanova should be re-imbursed for it.
I think removing the money retroactively from the game will be/is far more detrimental than having left it in.
- Lostangel - 2006.Aug.24 08:17 AM
I didn't say that Zenith doesn't have the power to do it. You point to rule #9, which is about conduct. Nothing that Casanova did was out of line, based on both in-game conduct and precedent in other, similar games.
From M-W.com
Main Entry: do·na·tion
Pronunciation: dO-'nA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English donatyowne, from Latin donation-, donatio, from donare to present, from donum gift; akin to Latin dare to give -- more at DATE
: the act or an instance of donating : as a : the making of a gift especially to a charity or public institution b : a free contribution : GIFT
I am not technically referring to the "donation", although that defination could also be argued in court. I am referring to the transfer of in-game money, which everyone at the top of the wealth list has done to some extent. The "donation" was to buy credits. The problem I have is that there is no rule against giving another player any amount of in-game money. Although Casanova has said to several players, and possibly in the forums, that he was retiring/quitting, he told me (which Zenith can verify with a look thru the logs) that he will return. That negates even Zenith's reason for taking back my money in the first place, which was that money can not be given by a retiring player to another player. Because of this, should I get the money back?
I still respectfully ask for a full explanition on how it had hurt the game, and from Zenith. Anyone else, feel free to chime in on how you think it hurts the game too. And if you think the decision is wrong, feel free to post why you believe it to be wrong too.
- DreadPiratePinky - 2006.Aug.24 08:20 AM
Lostangel Wrote:Although Casanova has said to several players, and possibly in the forums, that he was retiring/quitting, he told me (which Zenith can verify with a look thru the logs) that he will return. That negates even Zenith's reason for taking back my money in the first place, which was that money can not be given by a retiring player to another player. Because of this, should I get the money back?
I got this from Cass with my gift:
23.August.06 - 3:40:07 pm CASANOVA [1348]
Merry Xmas, bud
I have decided to stop while I am at the top.I love the game and will return one day.You better buy that new house or something.
I got a Girl friend to keep me occuppied now.I don't want your thanks as I liked talking to you and may still drop a line in on you to see where you are at in the game.
That doesn't fit with rule 10. which i'm sure will be adjusted to fit this situation.
- Lostangel - 2006.Aug.24 08:29 AM
To Jack,
No it was neither a veiled threat, nor an attempt at sarcasm. It is based on my, possibly faulty, memory of successful cases tried in court about items/cash in MMOs. All major graphics based MMOs have a clause stating that the person playing does not "own" anything in the game. I do not know if there is legal precedent for a game company to take something from a player, when the player did nothing wrong. I have no desire to find out, either.
Zenith can call the cash the game receives a donation. It may or may not stick legally. I am not challanging that in any way. What I am challanging is the fact that once a player has turned the credits into game cash (or with money they earned in the game), they HAD the right (would you prefer the term ability?) to do whatever they want with it.
This issue here is clearly the amount of cash transferred. I have received 100k before with no problems like this. Had Casanova given 200 100k, would there be a problem? Zenith only cares (ok, that is a leading statement, made because I am getting more upset) because two people received a lot of money.
As an aside, I also feel that Zenith is "protecting" a select few in the game. I wanted to state this, even though it has nothing to do with my above arguement. I DO NOT feel that Zenith is unbiased.
- Sam I Am - 2006.Aug.24 08:51 AM
Lostangel Wrote:I didn't say that Zenith doesn't have the power to do it. You point to rule #9, which is about conduct. Nothing that Casanova did was out of line, based on both in-game conduct and precedent in other, similar games.
Meant Rule 1 sorry about that.
- Naught - 2006.Aug.24 09:01 AM
No rule was broken, at least none that were in place at the time. Right?
- Lostangel - 2006.Aug.24 09:57 AM
As Naught said, no rules were broken. And in fact, no rule is still being broken, as Casanova has not retired, but left for a period of time, as evidenced by Pinky's email, as well as email that was sent to me.
I also am not complaining about the rules changing, per se, I am complaining about what the rule is, that the rule was retroactively applied to two specific players in this situation and (more recently) that I have not been given an explaination how the game would be destabilized by this transfer.
- beelzebub - 2006.Aug.24 10:38 AM
I don't understand the opinions in this thread. I let Zenith know that I felt what she and Err decided on the situation was wrong. She's been nothing but respectful of my opinion, even though I was extremely harsh (to the point where I didn't want to post it publicly here). I was literally shocked I got a pleasant and professional response, as I fully expected something nasty back.
I don't care who is on top of the list for wealth. Big deal. I am actually on the side of Lostangel and DreadPiratePinky in this situation. But come on, Zen's given us credit for stuff "retroactively" (um, look at the class gains), now you guys are threatening legal action because she made you give back something that you didn't earn to the original owner?
If you look at Zen's post about why they came to their decision it seems as if it had nothing to do with "destabilizing the economy". Why you harp about this one subject is beyond me.
Zen has always had rules for us to follow, and the biggest rule was the rules are subject to change without notice. I guess this is just one of those situations, even though I think it's crap.
Us "elders" as you like to call it don't all share the same brain. Some of us are on your side. But Zen and Err decided this was best for the game in the long run, so begrudgeonly accept it and move on. There are a lot of games like this one out there, but I doubt you will find one run as well as this. I know in some of the other games if you pulled this shit you'd be fed jailed.
- Sam I Am - 2006.Aug.24 10:51 AM
Post of the Month ^^
Very well worded Bub
- Lostangel - 2006.Aug.24 11:15 AM
Quote:23.August.06 - 11:14:59 pm Zenith [2] Difficult Decisions
I know you most likely will be extremely unhappy with our decision concerning your gift from a quitting player. This was not an easy decision, one of which we spent a long time on and looked at many possible alternatives.
The $15,357,044 you received from Casanova today must be returned. It would be unfair to allow this transaction to take place and then penalize all future occurences. We have retroactively given benefits to players who had been hit with a game bug or unforseen issue in the past, and now it is with regret we must rule retroactively against unearned gains.
Since our game is still in beta, these unfortunate decisions must be made for the longterm benefit to our community. While it might seem unfair to you to have to return your gift, we have deemed it was a precedent ruling that was too important to not act quickly on.
So on behalf of the Awakened Lands braintrust, both myself and Err, we have decided the $15,357,044 you received must be returned to Casanova.
Sincerely,
Zenith
Awakened Lands Creator and Admin
This is what I got from Zenith. Quite professional and to the point, but not explaining why this gift harms the community, while other large gifts (100K and over) are not affected. It is that I am looking for.
Quote:I don't care who is on top of the list for wealth. Big deal. I am actually on the side of Lostangel and DreadPiratePinky in this situation. But come on, Zen's given us credit for stuff "retroactively" (um, look at the class gains), now you guys are threatening legal action because she made you give back something that you didn't earn to the original owner?
A retroactive bug fix (some players had gotten the correct values, some had not) is NOT the same as this situation. And I will point out (for the second time) that I am NOT threatening legal action. I quite specifically spelled out that I am NOT litigous I am pointing out that in a public game, legal action COULD happen, and that should be a part of their thought process.
Quote:If you look at Zen's post about why they came to their decision it seems as if it had nothing to do with "destabilizing the economy". Why you harp about this one subject is beyond me.[quote]
It was a term used in this thread (although I can not verify that at the moment of writing this. It might have been in an email I received.). I will use the benefit of the community term going forward, as that was the reason given to me. I would like an explanation from Zenith how this decision benefits the community. The way I see it (and likely biased view it is) is that the rule was created to hurt two players in a specific situation. Rule 10 is completely un-enforceable, given the existing rules in the game. There is no way TO retire. Casa can come back today, tomorrow, next week, next month or next year. The only way for him to "retire, is for Zenith to delete his account, or to change his password, unless new code gets put in place allowing a player to retire themselves (chuckles at the thought of the suicide thread about attacking Chris).
[quote]Zen has always had rules for us to follow, and the biggest rule was the rules are subject to change without notice. I guess this is just one of those situations, even though I think it's drek.
A game has rule to give form to the game. We all follow the rules or we will be banned. If the rule was to give the T350s back to Zenith, which is just as arbatrary (in my fairly upset state of mind right now), would that be good for the game? Players should be penalized for doing something that is either against the rules, or (possibly) against the spirit of the rules. This was neither. And I did not fight the ruling, as I gave back my money last night as soon as I saw Zenith's email. I believe the rule to be a detriment to the game, and I believe that it is specifically targeting one player unfairly.
Quote:Us "elders" as you like to call it don't all share the same brain. Some of us are on your side. But Zen and Err decided this was best for the game in the long run, so begrudgeonly accept it and move on. There are a lot of games like this one out there, but I doubt you will find one run as well as this. I know in some of the other games if you pulled this drek you'd be fed jailed.
I do (and did) accept the ruling. I DON'T accept the rule. Zenith only owns the hardware and software for the game. The players own the game. Zenith is only the keeper of it. I am trying to get Zenith to change the rule and change it to something that affects everyone equally, and doesn't unfairly target one player who payed (donated) a lot of money to make this game better.
I appreciate the chance to have an open forum for the reasonable discussion about the differences in opinion. I have not (intentionally) attacked anyone. I HAVE lumped the people who are at the top of the game together, and stereosyping all of them together was maybe not my best idea. I appologise for that.
All I want is an explanation from Zenith on how the transfer hurt the game. What I hope for is for the ruling to be reversed, for the good of the game...